All Malaysians have special rights"Therefore, the rakyat must unite and never raise issues regarding Malay rights and special privileges because it is a quid pro quo in gratitude for the giving in of citizenship (beri-paksa kerakyatan) to 2.7 million non-Malays into the Tanah Melayu federation....Thus, it is not appropriate for these other ethnic groups to have citizenship, only (later) to seek equality and privileges," said Tengku Faris, who read from a 11-page prepared text.
As a Malaysian who believes in a social contract based on the notion that ‘all Malaysians are created equal’, I do not understand the ‘royal statement’.
If it comes from the Biro Tatanegara (BTN), I can understand the confusion. But this is from a royal house.
This statement was valid 50 years ago, before Independence. This is an outdated statement that is not appreciated by the children of those who have laboured for this nation.
I believe we should look forward to institutionalising ‘special rights for all Malaysians’. The word ‘special’ is in itself special. Culturally it can either denote an enabling condition or a disabling one.
In the study of religion, one is bestowed a special place for living life well or for doing good deeds. In educational studies, ‘special education’ caters for the needs of those with a disabling physical, emotional or cognitive condition.
In all these, ‘special rights’ are accorded based on merit. One works hard to get special offers and into special places.
In the doctrine of the ‘divine rights of kings’, one's special right is the birthright. Louis XVI of revolutionary France, Shah Jehan of Taj Mahal fame, Emperor Hirohito of Japan, Shah Reza Pahlavi of Revolutionary Iran, King Bumiphol Adulyadev, and the sultans of Melaka were ‘special people’ who designed institutions that installed individuals based on rights sanctioned through a ‘mandate of heaven’.
Such people use specialised language to differentiate who is special and who is not. Court language is archaic, terse, meant to instill fear and to institutionalise special-ness.
The language of the street or market is fluid, accommodating, meant to instill open-ness and institutionalise creativity at its best and further development of the ‘underclass’ at its worst.
This continuum of language, power, and ideology is characteristic of histories of nations. In Malay history, istana language is enshrined in the hikayat and in Tun Seri Lanang's Sejarah Melayu. Street language used in Malay folklore and in bawdy poems, pantun and stories of Sang Kancil.
Class consciousness, many a sociologist would say, dictates the special-ness of people across time and space. Historical-materialism necessitates the development of the specialised use and abuse of language. One can do a lot of things with words. Words can be deployed to create a sustainable and profitable master-slave relationship.
A better argument
Let us elevate the argument so that we will have a better view of what race, ethnicity, nationalism and cosmopolitanism means.
I propose we review what “special rights of the Malays" mean in light of 50 years of Independence and post-March 8, 2008.
I agree we must give credit to those working hard to "improve the psychological well-being of the Malays" and for that matter for any race to improve its mental wellness. This is important. This is a noble act.
The question is: in doing so, do we want to plant the seeds of cooperation and trust - or racial discrimination and deep hatred? Herein lies the difference between indoctrination and education.
These days, the idea of Ketuanan Melayu is going bankrupt, sinking with the bahtera merdeka. It works only for Malay robber barons who wish to plunder the nation by silencing the masses and using the ideological state apparatuses at their disposal.
In the case of the BTN it is the work of controlling the minds of the youth. Its work should not be allowed any more in our educational institutions. It is time our universities especially are spared counter-educational activities, especially when they yearn to be free of the shackles of domination.
Over decades, many millions of Malays and non-Malays have not been getting the right information on our nation's history, political-economy, and race relations. History that is being shoved into us or filter-funnelled down the labyrinth of our consciousness is one that is already packaged, biased, and propagandised by historians who became text-books writers.
History need not be Malay-centric. Special rights for all Malaysians should be the goal of distributive and regulative justice of this nation, not the "special rights of a few Malays". History must be presented as the history of the marginalisd, the oppressed and the dispossessed of all races.
We toil for this nation, as the humanist Paramoedya Ananta Toer would say, by virtue of our existence as anak semua bangsa ... di bumi manusia. Malaysia is a land of immigrants.
In this regard we can learn from the former British colony called America. Whatever its shortcomings, it is a land of immigrants and is still evolving. A black man or a woman can become president. This is what America conceives itself to be and this is what Malaysian can learn from. Can a non-Malay become prime minster if he/she is the most ethical of all politicians in the country?
No one particular race should stake a claim to Malaysia. That is an idea from the old school of thought, fast being abandoned. Each citizen is born, bred, and brought to school to become a good law-abiding and productive Malaysian citizen, is accorded the fullest rights and privileges and will carry his/her responsibility as a good citizen.
That is what ‘surrendering one's natural rights to the state’ means. One must read Rousseau, Locke, Voltaire, and Jefferson to understand this philosophy. A bad government will not honour this - and will fall, or will sink like the bahtera merdeka.
The history of civilisations provides enough examples of devastation and genocide as a consequence of violent claims to the right of this or that land based upon some idea of ‘imagined communities’. We must teach our children to make a history of peace among nations. This must be made into a new school of thought: of ‘new bumiputeraism’ that encompasses all and does not alienate any. Life is too short for each generation to fight over greed.
The eleventh hour of human existence and our emergence in this world has brought about destruction as a consequence of our inability to mediate differences based on race, colour, creed, class and national origin. Each ethnic group thinks that it is more socially-dominant than the other. Each does not know the basis of its ‘self’. Each fails to realise its DNA-make up or gene map.
Life is an existential state of beingness, so must history be conceived as such. Nationalism can evolve into a dangerous concept - that was what happened to Europe at the brink of the two World Wars. It happened in the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, and in Indonesia when Suharto fell.
I argue that we must evolve in the historical presence of historical constructions. The past and the future is in the present. Let us no argue any more over this or those rights. Let us instead treat each other right.
Tuesday, May 27, 2008
Syed Hamid denies revoking Waytha's passport
The government today once again denied that it had revoked Hindraf chairperson P Waythamoorthy's passport.
The Ministry of Home Affairs has been informed by the Immigration Department of Malaysia that the Malaysian international passport issued to Waytha Moorthy s/o Ponnusamy is still active in our passport and travel document system.
"In other words, the Malaysian government has never made any cancellation to the mentioned travel document," said Home Minister Syed Hamid Albar Syed Hamid in a statement today.
"Waythamoorthy is now believed to be overseas and is still free to travel internationally," added the minister.
The issue erupted on May 16 when Waythamoorthy, presently in self-imposed exile in London, and Amnesty International said that the Malaysian government had revoked former's passport to force him to return to Malaysia.
Waythamoorthy had said that he was informed of the status of his passport when he returned to London from Zurich on April 21.
"I was informed by the UK immigration officer at Gatwick Airport that the Malaysian government had revoked my passport," he had said then.
Passport to expire in 2010
In an immediate reaction then, Syed Hamid suggested that Waythamoorthy's passport could have expired and shrugged off the issue by saying that a misunderstanding could have occurred over the status of the passport.
However Waythamoorthy clarified later that his passport was only due to expire in 2010.
Waythamoorthy has been away from Malaysia since the government's crackdown on Hindraf last November.
He had claimed that the government was seeking to lure him back to this country to detain him under the Internal Security Act.
Five other Hindraf leaders, including the movement's most popular face and Waythamoorthy's brother Uthayakumar, are presently being held without trial since Dec 13.
The Ministry of Home Affairs has been informed by the Immigration Department of Malaysia that the Malaysian international passport issued to Waytha Moorthy s/o Ponnusamy is still active in our passport and travel document system.
"In other words, the Malaysian government has never made any cancellation to the mentioned travel document," said Home Minister Syed Hamid Albar Syed Hamid in a statement today.
"Waythamoorthy is now believed to be overseas and is still free to travel internationally," added the minister.
The issue erupted on May 16 when Waythamoorthy, presently in self-imposed exile in London, and Amnesty International said that the Malaysian government had revoked former's passport to force him to return to Malaysia.
Waythamoorthy had said that he was informed of the status of his passport when he returned to London from Zurich on April 21.
"I was informed by the UK immigration officer at Gatwick Airport that the Malaysian government had revoked my passport," he had said then.
Passport to expire in 2010
In an immediate reaction then, Syed Hamid suggested that Waythamoorthy's passport could have expired and shrugged off the issue by saying that a misunderstanding could have occurred over the status of the passport.
However Waythamoorthy clarified later that his passport was only due to expire in 2010.
Waythamoorthy has been away from Malaysia since the government's crackdown on Hindraf last November.
He had claimed that the government was seeking to lure him back to this country to detain him under the Internal Security Act.
Five other Hindraf leaders, including the movement's most popular face and Waythamoorthy's brother Uthayakumar, are presently being held without trial since Dec 13.
Protest by Selangor Indians
The Selangor government will provide financial and welfare assistance to families of those held under the Internal Security Act (ISA), which allows detention without trial.
Menteri Besar Khalid Ibrahim said these measures would be taken up by the state government to help the wives and children of these detainees to ease their burden during the difficult period.
He added that his government will look into bearing the travelling costs for families to visit the detention camp every week.
At the same time, he said that children of the detainees may apply for state government scholarships to further their studies.
The wives too will be encouraged to look into various ways to become involved in businesses to help them earn a living, he said.
"Life can be difficult for them but they must continue to fight," he said after receiving a memorandum from the Abolish ISA Movement (GMI) today.
DAP state assemblyperson M Manoharan is one of about 70 ISA detainees being held presently at the Kamunting detention centre.
Manoharan was detained last December along with four other Hindu Rights Action Force leaders for allegedly being a national threat.
He contested for the Kota Alam Shah state seat in the March 8 general election and won comfortably.
Motion against ISA
Meanwhile in the state assembly, Kampung Tunku state representative and Selangor DAP secretary Lau Weng San today moved a motion for the release of Manoharan and all other ISA detainees.
He cited several reasons for Manoharan to be released immediately, among others that he won the Kota Alam Shah state seat with a big majority of 7,184 votes even though he was not present during campaigning and polling day due to his detention."
This was not just a big win for him or DAP but it was also a slap in the face for the federal government who had detained him without trail," he said in his speech in the assembly.
Lau said that Manoharan had merely highlighted the issues affecting the Indian community and was never a threat to the national security.
"He should be released immediately so that he can function as a state representative," he said, adding that it was unfair for the people of Kota Alam Shah not to have their representative around to raise their issues.
Lau also said that the reasons cited by the government for the detention of Manoharan and four other Hindraf leaders were weak.
The state assembly later passed the motion calling on the federal government to abolish the ISA and release all the ISA detainees or charge all of them in court.
Protest by Indian group
Earlier Khalid also said that the state government shared GMI's views on the abolition of the ISA as well as the Official Secrets Act.
GMI chairperson Syed Ibrahim Syed Noh said some of the detainees were being held since 2002.
"Six years is not a short period - these sole breadwinners have lost their jobs and their children are suffering the consequences.
"There are also two detainees whose wives have sought divorce because of the long detention," he added.
Meanwhile, a group of Indian protested at the Selangor state secretariat in Shah Alam to express their disappointment with the failures of the state government in fulfilling election pledges.
The group, numbering about 80 and calling themselves Selangor Indian Community, handed a memorandum covering 13 issues to the office of Khalid.
They want the appointment of another Indian representative in the state executive council, at least six Indian representatives in each local council, and an Indian mayor for either the Shah Alam or Petaling Jaya city councils.The group also asked that at least 25 percent of positions in the state government be allocated to Indians.
Menteri Besar Khalid Ibrahim said these measures would be taken up by the state government to help the wives and children of these detainees to ease their burden during the difficult period.
He added that his government will look into bearing the travelling costs for families to visit the detention camp every week.
At the same time, he said that children of the detainees may apply for state government scholarships to further their studies.
The wives too will be encouraged to look into various ways to become involved in businesses to help them earn a living, he said.
"Life can be difficult for them but they must continue to fight," he said after receiving a memorandum from the Abolish ISA Movement (GMI) today.
DAP state assemblyperson M Manoharan is one of about 70 ISA detainees being held presently at the Kamunting detention centre.
Manoharan was detained last December along with four other Hindu Rights Action Force leaders for allegedly being a national threat.
He contested for the Kota Alam Shah state seat in the March 8 general election and won comfortably.
Motion against ISA
Meanwhile in the state assembly, Kampung Tunku state representative and Selangor DAP secretary Lau Weng San today moved a motion for the release of Manoharan and all other ISA detainees.
He cited several reasons for Manoharan to be released immediately, among others that he won the Kota Alam Shah state seat with a big majority of 7,184 votes even though he was not present during campaigning and polling day due to his detention."
This was not just a big win for him or DAP but it was also a slap in the face for the federal government who had detained him without trail," he said in his speech in the assembly.
Lau said that Manoharan had merely highlighted the issues affecting the Indian community and was never a threat to the national security.
"He should be released immediately so that he can function as a state representative," he said, adding that it was unfair for the people of Kota Alam Shah not to have their representative around to raise their issues.
Lau also said that the reasons cited by the government for the detention of Manoharan and four other Hindraf leaders were weak.
The state assembly later passed the motion calling on the federal government to abolish the ISA and release all the ISA detainees or charge all of them in court.
Protest by Indian group
Earlier Khalid also said that the state government shared GMI's views on the abolition of the ISA as well as the Official Secrets Act.
GMI chairperson Syed Ibrahim Syed Noh said some of the detainees were being held since 2002.
"Six years is not a short period - these sole breadwinners have lost their jobs and their children are suffering the consequences.
"There are also two detainees whose wives have sought divorce because of the long detention," he added.
Meanwhile, a group of Indian protested at the Selangor state secretariat in Shah Alam to express their disappointment with the failures of the state government in fulfilling election pledges.
The group, numbering about 80 and calling themselves Selangor Indian Community, handed a memorandum covering 13 issues to the office of Khalid.
They want the appointment of another Indian representative in the state executive council, at least six Indian representatives in each local council, and an Indian mayor for either the Shah Alam or Petaling Jaya city councils.The group also asked that at least 25 percent of positions in the state government be allocated to Indians.
I am not sure if Anwar Ibrahim can be trusted
Previously, we talked about how PKR de facto leader Anwar Ibrahim has not admitted to – and probably will never admit to – previous mistakes while he was part of the Barisan Nasional government. And as such, he would never apologise for them.
In today's piece, we want to deal with another important and somewhat related matter, which is can he be trusted?
Those who have observed Anwar over the years would probably agree to the following adjectives to describe him – slick, shrewd, cunning. These words do not necessarily have positive connotations and for good reason.
Anwar has often been accused of being a political chameleon – capable of adjusting his messages depending on the audience he's addressing. He's great at massaging his messages in such a way that you feel he's telling you exactly what you want to hear. A smooth operator.
That doesn't mean that he is inconsistent or hypocritical – Dr Mahathir Mohamad has that market cornered. In fact, he's been very consistent in his policies since his release from prison. Take for example, his stance that the New Economic Policy (NEP) needs to be dismantled and replaced with something more inclusive. Even though he has been criticised by Umno over this matter, he has not relented once.
Two questions are relevant in regard to whether Anwar can be trusted. Firstly, is he a changed man? Secondly, does this even matter?
Is Anwar the Reformasi Man the same political animal as the Anwar the deputy prime minister? We think that having gone through what he has, it would be difficult for him not to have changed as a result.
Anwar went from the pinnacle of political power to the depths of political humiliation. He was charged with abuse of power and committing sodomy. He was beaten up by the then-chief of police. And his name – as well as those around him – was dragged through the mud by the mainstream media. Never before had a Malaysian politician of his stature felt the heavy hand of the state against him in the way Anwar did.
When he was locked up, he didn't wallow in self-pity. He used his time productively to read and to do copious amounts of soul searching. It's hard to imagine that the six years he spent in that cold jail cell failed to change him in some very profound and fundamental ways.
He will not renege on his promises
But even if one is cynical and believes that he has not changed, does it matter provided he carries out all the reforms he has promised?
There is little doubt in our minds that he would free up the media, abolish the Internal Security Act and reform the Universities and University Colleges Act if he becomes the next PM. He would also dismantle the NEP and replace it with something better. You can also throw in a Freedom of Information Act to boot. In other words, he would implement all the things that civil society expects him to.
Why are we so confident about that?
Quite simply, because it would be to his strategic advantage to carry out such reforms. In fact, there is only upside and no downside for him to do so. He would be seen as the man who was responsible for 'freeing' up Malaysia and for turning it into a real democracy. He would become the greatest PM Malaysia ever had.And what if he reneges on his promises – promises that have been widely-publicised domestically and internationally? Think of it this way. If Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi could suffer so badly politically in such a short span of time because of his failure to keep his promises of reform, imagine how much more Anwar would suffer if he didn't live up to expectations.
Many of the young and idealistic people who have joined PKR have done so precisely because they've bought into his progressive vision for the future. These very same people would leave his party in droves if he starts reneging on his promises. His popular support amongst the masses would dry up and Pakatan Rakyat would disintegrate as his coalition partners desert him.
So, not only do we think he will do all that he has promised to do, we think he will do them in lightning quick fashion. In that sense, he is the antithesis of Abdullah – a glacially slow reformer if there ever was one. Everything about Anwar shows that he can't wait to implement reforms. What is his campaign about, if not reforms?
Now, is this because he truly believes in all these reforms? Or would he implement them for vainglorious reasons – because they are politically popular things to do and he wants a permanent place in the history book?
There's no way to read the hearts of men. We don't know, for example, whether he's absolutely sincere or not when he says that he believes in a free press. But we do know that he has said this on far too many occasions for him to backtrack on it once he comes to power.
At the end of the day, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. If Anwar does deliver on all his reform promises, does it even matter whether he's sincere or trustworthy in the eyes of his critics? What's important is that he implements reforms. And we have every reason to believe he will do that.
Ong Kian Ming
In today's piece, we want to deal with another important and somewhat related matter, which is can he be trusted?
Those who have observed Anwar over the years would probably agree to the following adjectives to describe him – slick, shrewd, cunning. These words do not necessarily have positive connotations and for good reason.
Anwar has often been accused of being a political chameleon – capable of adjusting his messages depending on the audience he's addressing. He's great at massaging his messages in such a way that you feel he's telling you exactly what you want to hear. A smooth operator.
That doesn't mean that he is inconsistent or hypocritical – Dr Mahathir Mohamad has that market cornered. In fact, he's been very consistent in his policies since his release from prison. Take for example, his stance that the New Economic Policy (NEP) needs to be dismantled and replaced with something more inclusive. Even though he has been criticised by Umno over this matter, he has not relented once.
Two questions are relevant in regard to whether Anwar can be trusted. Firstly, is he a changed man? Secondly, does this even matter?
Is Anwar the Reformasi Man the same political animal as the Anwar the deputy prime minister? We think that having gone through what he has, it would be difficult for him not to have changed as a result.
Anwar went from the pinnacle of political power to the depths of political humiliation. He was charged with abuse of power and committing sodomy. He was beaten up by the then-chief of police. And his name – as well as those around him – was dragged through the mud by the mainstream media. Never before had a Malaysian politician of his stature felt the heavy hand of the state against him in the way Anwar did.
When he was locked up, he didn't wallow in self-pity. He used his time productively to read and to do copious amounts of soul searching. It's hard to imagine that the six years he spent in that cold jail cell failed to change him in some very profound and fundamental ways.
He will not renege on his promises
But even if one is cynical and believes that he has not changed, does it matter provided he carries out all the reforms he has promised?
There is little doubt in our minds that he would free up the media, abolish the Internal Security Act and reform the Universities and University Colleges Act if he becomes the next PM. He would also dismantle the NEP and replace it with something better. You can also throw in a Freedom of Information Act to boot. In other words, he would implement all the things that civil society expects him to.
Why are we so confident about that?
Quite simply, because it would be to his strategic advantage to carry out such reforms. In fact, there is only upside and no downside for him to do so. He would be seen as the man who was responsible for 'freeing' up Malaysia and for turning it into a real democracy. He would become the greatest PM Malaysia ever had.And what if he reneges on his promises – promises that have been widely-publicised domestically and internationally? Think of it this way. If Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi could suffer so badly politically in such a short span of time because of his failure to keep his promises of reform, imagine how much more Anwar would suffer if he didn't live up to expectations.
Many of the young and idealistic people who have joined PKR have done so precisely because they've bought into his progressive vision for the future. These very same people would leave his party in droves if he starts reneging on his promises. His popular support amongst the masses would dry up and Pakatan Rakyat would disintegrate as his coalition partners desert him.
So, not only do we think he will do all that he has promised to do, we think he will do them in lightning quick fashion. In that sense, he is the antithesis of Abdullah – a glacially slow reformer if there ever was one. Everything about Anwar shows that he can't wait to implement reforms. What is his campaign about, if not reforms?
Now, is this because he truly believes in all these reforms? Or would he implement them for vainglorious reasons – because they are politically popular things to do and he wants a permanent place in the history book?
There's no way to read the hearts of men. We don't know, for example, whether he's absolutely sincere or not when he says that he believes in a free press. But we do know that he has said this on far too many occasions for him to backtrack on it once he comes to power.
At the end of the day, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. If Anwar does deliver on all his reform promises, does it even matter whether he's sincere or trustworthy in the eyes of his critics? What's important is that he implements reforms. And we have every reason to believe he will do that.
Ong Kian Ming
Send the Indians for unity training
The mindset of the Malaysians of Indian origin must be recreated to ensure that a united multiethnic culture is developed , nurtured and promoted. A meta-paradigm must be established where the Umno-BN created race-based mental construct is dismantled and replaced with a more advanced inter-racial unity.
It is towards this greater unity that the leaders of Pakatan Rakyat must strive for, shedding once and for all the ethnic prejudices that hindered the formation of a Malaysian nation united through the beauty of diversity.
Comprehensive-structured training models outlining the need for multiethnic unity must be developed and taught to the Indians who are still steeped in the fallacy of Umno -BN racism. The contents of this training module must be developed by a panel of experts in the field of inter- cultural mind and race relations.
Only through this type of training programmes can the Indians be firmly integrated into the body politic of PKR.
Due the massive influx of Indians into PKR, especially after the recent general elections, it is vital that these training programmes are conducted as soon as possible so that the Indian mind thinks beyond the narrow confines of racial politics.
Only then will PKR's philosophy of a united plural Malaysia be realised in the long run. This will consolidate further the unity within the Pakatan Rakyat fraternity. The promise of a higher unity in the new Malaysia agenda as conceived and propounded by Anwar Ibrahim must be fulfilled.
Malaysians of varied culture and creed must be united, a super multiethnic culture must gradually evolve from this body of knowledge. It is hoped such trainings will be conducted to bring into full maturity the unity long awaited by the Malaysians of different origins.
It is towards this greater unity that the leaders of Pakatan Rakyat must strive for, shedding once and for all the ethnic prejudices that hindered the formation of a Malaysian nation united through the beauty of diversity.
Comprehensive-structured training models outlining the need for multiethnic unity must be developed and taught to the Indians who are still steeped in the fallacy of Umno -BN racism. The contents of this training module must be developed by a panel of experts in the field of inter- cultural mind and race relations.
Only through this type of training programmes can the Indians be firmly integrated into the body politic of PKR.
Due the massive influx of Indians into PKR, especially after the recent general elections, it is vital that these training programmes are conducted as soon as possible so that the Indian mind thinks beyond the narrow confines of racial politics.
Only then will PKR's philosophy of a united plural Malaysia be realised in the long run. This will consolidate further the unity within the Pakatan Rakyat fraternity. The promise of a higher unity in the new Malaysia agenda as conceived and propounded by Anwar Ibrahim must be fulfilled.
Malaysians of varied culture and creed must be united, a super multiethnic culture must gradually evolve from this body of knowledge. It is hoped such trainings will be conducted to bring into full maturity the unity long awaited by the Malaysians of different origins.
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
BBC Interview with Dr.M
For those of you who missed the interview on TV, here's a re-run....
Stephen Sackur Introduction:Last month marked a watershed in the politics of Malaysia. The ruling national front recorded its worst election results in five decades. It's still in power but seriously weakened. My guest today personifies the power of the ruling party for 22 years. He was Malaysia's PM and one of the most outspoken leaders in the Muslim world. His critics called him a racist and a dictator. Has retirement mellowed Mahathir Mohamed?
Stephen Sackur: Dr Mohamad welcome to Hardtalk. Let's start with that election result last month, has it marked the beginning of the end for Malaysia's ruling party?
Mahathir Mohamad: Not necessarily, unless no action is taken, of course it may result in that. But if proper action is taken, including of course the present Prime Minister leaving his seat of power, it may be possible to bring back the Barisan Nasional Front in order to become again a very strong ruling party.
Stephen Sackur: You're saying that PM Abdullah Badawi has to be kicked out for the ruling party to recover?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well not so strong as that. He can step down. I stepped down in my time. It's about time that he steps down because the result of the election shows clearly that many of the former followers, supporters of the Nasional Front had decided that they would work, vote for the Opposition even if they didn't like the Opposition. They voted for the Opposition to send a message to the present government.
Stephen Sackur: Prime Minister Abdullah says that you have been one of the curses that have brought him down, because you've been sniping from the sidelines for the last two or three years.
Mahathir Mohamad: That may be so. I don't see why I should not criticise wrongdoings by him.
Stephen Sackur: What wrongdoings?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well in the first place, the government promises to remove corruption and things like that, but the government is found to be corrupt.Stephen Sackur: You are tearing your own party apart though, that is the problem. And that is what many people inside your party believe.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well sometimes it may be necessary. I told people that I'm a doctor. If I find one leg becoming gangrenous I remove it.
Stephen Sackur: Now he has said Prime Minister Abdullah, that he will go eventually, but is your message to him that he has no time, he must go now?
Mahathir Mohamad: He must go now, because he will take time to revive the party for the next election.
Stephen Sackur: Isn't the truth of what we see in Malaysiatoday that the real discontent isn't so much with Prime Minister Abdullah, it is with the system and the ideology that you bequeathed to your country?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well the system and the ideology have been there for the last 50 years. It's worked very well we had always won elections, people always supported us and the country has done very well during that 50 years with that system.
Stephen Sackur : But the indications are and the opposition succeeded by saying to the public, we no longer want this racially defined system inside Malaysia. And it was the racial defined system that was the platform upon which you succeeded in running Malaysiafor 22 years.
Mahathir Mohamad: I think that's wishful thinking on the part of foreign critics. But the fact is that this election result was due to disaffection on the part of the ruling party's supporters, with the present leadership.
Stephen Sackur : Well let me just quote you the words of the new head of PenangStateand let's not forget that these results saw five very big and wealthy states go to the Opposition. The new head of Penang State Mr Lim Guan Eng, he says 'we want a new state administration that is free from corruption and cronyism, we are here to build a Penang State for all.' You didn't build a Malaysia for all did you?
Mahathir Mohamad: I did. If you look at Malaysiatoday. Everybody is enjoying, has enjoyed, a very good life. They have become very prosperous. Malaysiawas one of the fastest growing countries in the world. If you look at the different races, you can find that they all benefited from that government. So it is of course, necessary for Opposition parties to make remarks like that.
Stephen Sackur : But they are not making it up are they? Let's look at your new economic policy which you pursued for so long. It favours ethnic Malays, in so many different ways, from public sector appointments to university places, to advantageous acquisition of stocks, discounts on housing, I don't know where to stop. There are so many different ways in which you ran an unequal system.
Mahathir Mohamad: No this was a policy which was initiated by my predecessors, it was necessary to...
Stephen Sackur : But you ran it for 22 years, you had ample opportunity to change it.
Mahathir Mohamad: Yes I had ample opportunity to implement in a way that will correct imbalances that existed in Malaysiasince the British days. And unless these imbalances are corrected there's bound to be another race riot, as happened in 1969.
Stephen Sackur : But the point is that 80 thousand Indians for example, were on the streets protesting long and loud last November, because they are no longer prepared to live with the racial division that you set in the stone.
Mahathir Mohamad: Why now? Why not during my time? They were quite free to demonstrate. Many of the people who disagreed with me demonstrated...
Stephen Sackur : But many of the people who disagreed with you, I'm afraid ended up in prison.
Mahathir Mohamad: Who?
Stephen Sackur : Hundreds of them, read every Amnesty international and human rights watch report for the years in which you were in power..
Mahathir Mohamad: The western press, the problem is that you make up these stories and then you take this as the truth, it's not the truth. Tell me who are the hundreds of people who ended up in prison.
Stephen Sackur: I'll discuss human rights a little bit later. I just want before we get distracted from this question of racism in Malaysia, I just want to put to you this final point: Anwar Ibrahim says that he is going to push and of course he your long time friend who became, your political enemy, he is going to push for a colour blind Malaysiawhere affirmative action is open to all who need help.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well this opportunism for him, now that he is out of the government, he was in the government for a long time, he never made any complaints, he never did anything to.
Stephen Sackur : He certainly made a complaint when you locked him up.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well that was not the reason why he was locked up, he was accused of sodomy, he was accused of abuse of power, he was tried in court, nine months and he was defended by nine lawyers and he was found guilty...
Stephen Sackur : Trumped up charges.. trumped up charges.. says not just Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International but I've been looking through the record, the Canadian government, the White House, the International Commission of Jurists, all of them expressed grave and deep concern with the way in which your judicial system treated Anwar Ibrahim.
Mahathir Mohamad: Yes you're free to say so but...
Stephen Sackur : I'm not saying it, I'm just quoting to you all the people who did say it.
Mahathir Mohamad: But what is the record of these countries? These people, these same countries arrested people without the law, and detained them in GuantanamoBayand even in Britainhere, you arrest people and detain them without any sanction by law.
Stephen Sackur : So does that make it okay that you did it for 22 years?
Mahathir Mohamad: We did it under the laws of the country, but it is not the way...
Stephen Sackur : You used the laws which went back to colonial times, the internal security act, emergency procedures, you feel satisfied to tell me that that was entirely legitimate?
Mahathir Mohamad: No we find that the situation in the country is very very fluid and it is very likely that there will be racial riots, unless we prevent precise people who are promoting racial hatred from talking about it.
Stephen Sackur : Put it this way, Dr Mahathir, you've had several years out of power now to consider your record and what you did, I wonder whether you are now ready to say that you regret what you did to Anwar Ibrahim?
Mahathir Mohamad: Why should I regret? He was arrested under the laws of the country, he was tried in the courts of the country and he was sentenced by the court. If he was not wrong, I don't think, no matter what you think about our judiciary, I don't think he would have beensentenced to prison.
Stephen Sackur : It damaged your reputation though didn't it?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well that's something I have to accept.
Stephen Sackur : You may also find it comes back to haunt you? Anwar Ibrahim is now leading the opposition coalition. We are led to believe that there are certain MPs in the ruling party who may defect to him, in which case he could very soon be running the government. And he's made it plain that he wants to have you answer for all of the things you do while you were in power.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well he's welcome to do that if he becomes the Prime Minister of Malaysia, but if he wins over members of the ruling party to his side, it is the prime minister, the present leader who should be blamed, because he couldn't even get the loyalty of his own members.
Stephen Sackur : It wasn't the current prime minister who was in power when Anwar Ibrahim was savagely beaten during his time in detention?
Mahathir Mohamad: Savagely beaten? I know he was slapped and he had a black eye which was very useful for election purpose...
Stephen Sackur : Why you think he hit himself maybe?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well I don't know what happened..but the police the IGP admitted that he assaulted Anwar, but that wasn't me that was the IGP.
Stephen Sackur : But how do you respond, if Anwar comes to power and he as he said on this programme and elsewhere, that he wants a full and thorough public inquiry into all of your, Dr Mahathir's misdeeds, how will you respond to that?
Mahathir Mohamad: He is welcome to do so, but I hope that he finds people who are neutral, who are impartial, probably foreigners, because I don't trust the people that they put after people they don't like.
Stephen Sackur : Interesting that you say you don't trust people who are currently or maybe in charge of any inquiry, do you trust the integrity of the Malaysian judiciary?
Mahathir Mohamad: I do, at times I do but...
Stephen Sackur : is that because you appointed the judges?
Mahathir Mohamad: I didn't appoint the judges, the judges were recommended by the Chief Justice and my duty is to check whether he has any records or not and after that he is presented to the king who will then appoint the judge...
Stephen Sackur : Dr Mahathir, you know as well as I do, that the hottest political topic in Malaysiatoday, is the state of the judiciary, the integrity of the judiciary and that a video has been playing in Malaysia for a long time now which shows a top lawyer talking to a top judge going back to 2001, in which the lawyer says to the judge 'believe me in the end all of the positions going all the way to the supreme court are fixed by the politicians', i.e. by you who were the prime minister at the time Dr Mahathir?
Mahathir Mohamad: Did he say that? Did he mention my name?
Stephen Sackur : He didn't mention your name he said this will be fixed, this goes through the political system. You ran the political system.
Mahathir Mohamad: I'm not so sure about that. But the fact is that this man had his video taken because they intended to blackmail him. He happens to be my lawyer, defending me at this moment for libel against Anwar and this tape came from Anwar. Anwar had these thingsrecorded in order to blackmail the lawyer.
Stephen Sackur : But the point is the current government led by Prime Minister Abdullah who is nominally or despite what you have said on this programme, is of your party. Prime Minister Abdullah has now essentially apologised, he said both to the supreme court justice that you removed and to other judges that were suspended or removed during your time in power, he's said sorry to them. He's said that he wants to offer them monetary compensation
Mahathir Mohamad: Fine but it's a political move. Something a man who is very unpopular at the moment, wanting to show that he's going to do something right.
Stephen Sackur: And that Dr Mahathir is my point. The Malaysian people no longer want to live with the system you created. That's why Prime Minister Abdullah is essentially dismantling the system that you created.
Mahathir Mohamad: No no no he's not dismantling the system, he is making use of the system in a worse way. Nobody can say anything against him, he has newspapers which only reports about him and how great he is. And he was mislead by his own supporters, into believingthat if he holds the election now, this is one and half years before the end of the term, he would win, he would have a clean sweep.If you look at the records, he made statements that he would win the election, with zero for the Opposition.
Stephen Sackur: The more I listen to you talking about Prime Minister Abdullah, the more I wonder why did you choose him to be your successor?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well these people are very smart in hiding their true character. He was known as Mr Clean and I thought I would appoint a clean person to succeed me. Although he was not the one with the highest votes in my party. But I thought that he was older and Iappointed him thinking that he's not going to do anything very wrong. But this man gives priority to his family rather than to the country.
Stephen Sackur: So it was a fundamental lack of judgement on your part?
Mahathir Mohamad: Yes I'll admit that. But we all make mistakes. The British people voted in people like Blair, who told lies, so did the Americans. Lots of people make mistakes.
Stephen Sackur: We all make mistakes you say, was it also a mistake for you to define yourself so clearly, as anti-western and anti-democratic, in the sense that the West understands democracy?
Mahathir Mohamad: No that's the problem, I am not anti-Western, I am against the bad things that were done by the Western countries.
Stephen Sackur: You're not anti-western and yet in June 2003 before you left office, you said anglo-Saxon Europeans are essentially proponents and I'm quoting here: 'proponents of war, sodomy and genocide.'
Mahathir Mohamad: Which is true, you must admit.
Stephen Sackur: But you're not anti-western?
Mahathir Mohamad: I'm stating the fact. This is their character and I will continue to say so.
Stephen Sackur: So when you come here, you sit in the Hardtalk studio, in the heart of London, you regard yourself do you, as in one of the Headquarters of war, sodomy and genocide?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well I come here of course expecting to be lambasted by you, because that is the way you work.
Stephen Sackur: Well I'm not lambasting you at all. I'm trying to tease out whether you believe it was a mistake for you to use this sort of language. Because you clearly cut yourself off, from any sort of meaningful dialogue with the West when you use these words.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well the Europeans used to call us the lazy Malays, incompetent Malays, untrustworthy Malays, we couldn't say a thing about you. So when I was in a position to say what we think about you, and I did and you don't like it. When you said it to us you expect usto like it. We didn't like it, but we had no way of making our voices heard.
Stephen Sackur: I am just wondering how you feel about democracy. Of course in the world since 9/11, the United States and the coalition of partners led by the United Kingdom, have talked a lot about spreading democracy, do you believe in democracy?
Mahathir Mohamad: If you look at the history of the west, they come up with all kinds of ideologies, they use it for sometime and then they found it defective and they dropped it and start on another. One day they are going to forget about democracy because in some countriesdemocracy actually ended up with anarchy. And there were practically no governments. It's not a system that can feed everybody. You must have a certain understanding of the limitations of democracy, in order to make it work.
Stephen Sackur: Is that why you were not a democrat, why you in the end did behave like a dictator?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well that is something that the West would like to say about me, I am a dictator.
Stephen Sackur: Well I'm just quoting your own words from 2002. You said it's good governance people need, you said, feudal kings even dictators have provided and can provide good governments.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well that's very true, that is very true. The great civilisations of the past did not have democracies. And yet they became great. It's not necessary that the system will work for everybody. But if we have a bad leader, even the democratic system will fail.We must remember that it is a democratic country which dropped atomic bombs, killing 200 thousand people.
Stephen Sackur: How do you think the Malaysian public will respond to you saying, look you know what democracy isn't the best system and in fact dictatorship can often work better.
Mahathir Mohamad: I went through five elections and I won all the elections with a majority...
Stephen Sackur: Without a free press, locking up many of your opponents.
Mahathir Mohamad: There you go again about locking up many of my opponents, who are they?
Stephen Sackur: I don't know how many times I have to tell you, that I've studied the human rights watch reports, the Amnesty International reports, studies from the state department, from the Canadian government.
Mahathir Mohamad: These are biased reports, the first thing I did on becoming the prime minister in 1981, was to release political prisoners who were detained by my predecessors, 22 or them, including many members of the Opposition.
Stephen Sackur: Under the 1984 Press law which required newspapers to get a new licence every single year. It made it very easy for you to quieten them down, didn't it?
Mahathir Mohamad: No it has always been there, the press law has been there...I didn't do that...but the fact is that we have a multi-racial country and if we are not careful, there will be racial flare-ups. And you look at most of the countries with multi-racial population, they are never peaceful, even Northern Ireland, it took you such a long to stop the war in Northern Ireland.
Stephen Sackur: Talking of peace, you did worry about the stability of your country, didn't you? That's why you were very strong, very tough with Islamist extremism inside Malaysia.
Mahathir Mohamad: Yes it is necessary.
Stephen Sackur: Well I just wonder in that case then why just before you left office, in October 2003, why did you tell the Islamic Summit Conference that and I'm quoting again a very famous speech, it's a little bit long but '1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews,' you said. 'We're actually very strong. The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million but today Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them.' You wenton to say: 'But the Jews have become arrogant. And arrogant people like angry people will make mistakes and there may be a window of opportunity for us.'
Mahathir Mohamad: I'm stating facts, I am willing to say that again and again that this is what has happened.
Stephen Sackur: Anti-Semitic and racist that was called by many governments and people around the world.
Mahathir Mohamad: Anti-Semitism is created by the Jews themselves. We cannot say anything. In fact journalists have been arrested for saying something against the holocaust and jailed for three years. Where is the freedom of press?
Stephen Sackur: So those words I quoted in your view, are not anti-Semitic?Mahathir Mohamad: No they are not anti-Semitic? I am just quoting facts. The fact is that the United Statesobeys what Israelwants it to do.
Stephen Sackur: You call them facts, let's leave that aside for the moment. I am trying to understand your logic. Here you are a man who says that your own country is potentially destabilised by Islamic extremism and then you go out in an Islamic Conference and you usewords which could have been used by Osama bin Laden.
Mahathir Mohamad: There's no contradiction, no contradiction at all. I don't want Islamic terrorism any more than I want Jewish attacks against Israel, or American bombs on Baghdad. It is not incompatible.
Stephen Sackur: Do you feel confident that people still listen to your message?
Mahathir Mohamad: I wouldn't be able to say. Why should people worry about me?
Stephen Sackur: In Malaysiapeople say, and I'm talking about the Prime Minister, the leader of the Opposition: it's time for you to be quiet.
Mahathir Mohamad: Why should I be quiet? You mean to say when they are doing something wrong, to my country and I should not say anything? I would be irresponsible if I were to do that.
Stephen Sackur: Dr Mahathir Mohamad thank you very much for being on Hardtalk.
Mahathir Mohamad: You're welcome.
Stephen Sackur Introduction:Last month marked a watershed in the politics of Malaysia. The ruling national front recorded its worst election results in five decades. It's still in power but seriously weakened. My guest today personifies the power of the ruling party for 22 years. He was Malaysia's PM and one of the most outspoken leaders in the Muslim world. His critics called him a racist and a dictator. Has retirement mellowed Mahathir Mohamed?
Stephen Sackur: Dr Mohamad welcome to Hardtalk. Let's start with that election result last month, has it marked the beginning of the end for Malaysia's ruling party?
Mahathir Mohamad: Not necessarily, unless no action is taken, of course it may result in that. But if proper action is taken, including of course the present Prime Minister leaving his seat of power, it may be possible to bring back the Barisan Nasional Front in order to become again a very strong ruling party.
Stephen Sackur: You're saying that PM Abdullah Badawi has to be kicked out for the ruling party to recover?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well not so strong as that. He can step down. I stepped down in my time. It's about time that he steps down because the result of the election shows clearly that many of the former followers, supporters of the Nasional Front had decided that they would work, vote for the Opposition even if they didn't like the Opposition. They voted for the Opposition to send a message to the present government.
Stephen Sackur: Prime Minister Abdullah says that you have been one of the curses that have brought him down, because you've been sniping from the sidelines for the last two or three years.
Mahathir Mohamad: That may be so. I don't see why I should not criticise wrongdoings by him.
Stephen Sackur: What wrongdoings?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well in the first place, the government promises to remove corruption and things like that, but the government is found to be corrupt.Stephen Sackur: You are tearing your own party apart though, that is the problem. And that is what many people inside your party believe.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well sometimes it may be necessary. I told people that I'm a doctor. If I find one leg becoming gangrenous I remove it.
Stephen Sackur: Now he has said Prime Minister Abdullah, that he will go eventually, but is your message to him that he has no time, he must go now?
Mahathir Mohamad: He must go now, because he will take time to revive the party for the next election.
Stephen Sackur: Isn't the truth of what we see in Malaysiatoday that the real discontent isn't so much with Prime Minister Abdullah, it is with the system and the ideology that you bequeathed to your country?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well the system and the ideology have been there for the last 50 years. It's worked very well we had always won elections, people always supported us and the country has done very well during that 50 years with that system.
Stephen Sackur : But the indications are and the opposition succeeded by saying to the public, we no longer want this racially defined system inside Malaysia. And it was the racial defined system that was the platform upon which you succeeded in running Malaysiafor 22 years.
Mahathir Mohamad: I think that's wishful thinking on the part of foreign critics. But the fact is that this election result was due to disaffection on the part of the ruling party's supporters, with the present leadership.
Stephen Sackur : Well let me just quote you the words of the new head of PenangStateand let's not forget that these results saw five very big and wealthy states go to the Opposition. The new head of Penang State Mr Lim Guan Eng, he says 'we want a new state administration that is free from corruption and cronyism, we are here to build a Penang State for all.' You didn't build a Malaysia for all did you?
Mahathir Mohamad: I did. If you look at Malaysiatoday. Everybody is enjoying, has enjoyed, a very good life. They have become very prosperous. Malaysiawas one of the fastest growing countries in the world. If you look at the different races, you can find that they all benefited from that government. So it is of course, necessary for Opposition parties to make remarks like that.
Stephen Sackur : But they are not making it up are they? Let's look at your new economic policy which you pursued for so long. It favours ethnic Malays, in so many different ways, from public sector appointments to university places, to advantageous acquisition of stocks, discounts on housing, I don't know where to stop. There are so many different ways in which you ran an unequal system.
Mahathir Mohamad: No this was a policy which was initiated by my predecessors, it was necessary to...
Stephen Sackur : But you ran it for 22 years, you had ample opportunity to change it.
Mahathir Mohamad: Yes I had ample opportunity to implement in a way that will correct imbalances that existed in Malaysiasince the British days. And unless these imbalances are corrected there's bound to be another race riot, as happened in 1969.
Stephen Sackur : But the point is that 80 thousand Indians for example, were on the streets protesting long and loud last November, because they are no longer prepared to live with the racial division that you set in the stone.
Mahathir Mohamad: Why now? Why not during my time? They were quite free to demonstrate. Many of the people who disagreed with me demonstrated...
Stephen Sackur : But many of the people who disagreed with you, I'm afraid ended up in prison.
Mahathir Mohamad: Who?
Stephen Sackur : Hundreds of them, read every Amnesty international and human rights watch report for the years in which you were in power..
Mahathir Mohamad: The western press, the problem is that you make up these stories and then you take this as the truth, it's not the truth. Tell me who are the hundreds of people who ended up in prison.
Stephen Sackur: I'll discuss human rights a little bit later. I just want before we get distracted from this question of racism in Malaysia, I just want to put to you this final point: Anwar Ibrahim says that he is going to push and of course he your long time friend who became, your political enemy, he is going to push for a colour blind Malaysiawhere affirmative action is open to all who need help.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well this opportunism for him, now that he is out of the government, he was in the government for a long time, he never made any complaints, he never did anything to.
Stephen Sackur : He certainly made a complaint when you locked him up.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well that was not the reason why he was locked up, he was accused of sodomy, he was accused of abuse of power, he was tried in court, nine months and he was defended by nine lawyers and he was found guilty...
Stephen Sackur : Trumped up charges.. trumped up charges.. says not just Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International but I've been looking through the record, the Canadian government, the White House, the International Commission of Jurists, all of them expressed grave and deep concern with the way in which your judicial system treated Anwar Ibrahim.
Mahathir Mohamad: Yes you're free to say so but...
Stephen Sackur : I'm not saying it, I'm just quoting to you all the people who did say it.
Mahathir Mohamad: But what is the record of these countries? These people, these same countries arrested people without the law, and detained them in GuantanamoBayand even in Britainhere, you arrest people and detain them without any sanction by law.
Stephen Sackur : So does that make it okay that you did it for 22 years?
Mahathir Mohamad: We did it under the laws of the country, but it is not the way...
Stephen Sackur : You used the laws which went back to colonial times, the internal security act, emergency procedures, you feel satisfied to tell me that that was entirely legitimate?
Mahathir Mohamad: No we find that the situation in the country is very very fluid and it is very likely that there will be racial riots, unless we prevent precise people who are promoting racial hatred from talking about it.
Stephen Sackur : Put it this way, Dr Mahathir, you've had several years out of power now to consider your record and what you did, I wonder whether you are now ready to say that you regret what you did to Anwar Ibrahim?
Mahathir Mohamad: Why should I regret? He was arrested under the laws of the country, he was tried in the courts of the country and he was sentenced by the court. If he was not wrong, I don't think, no matter what you think about our judiciary, I don't think he would have beensentenced to prison.
Stephen Sackur : It damaged your reputation though didn't it?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well that's something I have to accept.
Stephen Sackur : You may also find it comes back to haunt you? Anwar Ibrahim is now leading the opposition coalition. We are led to believe that there are certain MPs in the ruling party who may defect to him, in which case he could very soon be running the government. And he's made it plain that he wants to have you answer for all of the things you do while you were in power.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well he's welcome to do that if he becomes the Prime Minister of Malaysia, but if he wins over members of the ruling party to his side, it is the prime minister, the present leader who should be blamed, because he couldn't even get the loyalty of his own members.
Stephen Sackur : It wasn't the current prime minister who was in power when Anwar Ibrahim was savagely beaten during his time in detention?
Mahathir Mohamad: Savagely beaten? I know he was slapped and he had a black eye which was very useful for election purpose...
Stephen Sackur : Why you think he hit himself maybe?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well I don't know what happened..but the police the IGP admitted that he assaulted Anwar, but that wasn't me that was the IGP.
Stephen Sackur : But how do you respond, if Anwar comes to power and he as he said on this programme and elsewhere, that he wants a full and thorough public inquiry into all of your, Dr Mahathir's misdeeds, how will you respond to that?
Mahathir Mohamad: He is welcome to do so, but I hope that he finds people who are neutral, who are impartial, probably foreigners, because I don't trust the people that they put after people they don't like.
Stephen Sackur : Interesting that you say you don't trust people who are currently or maybe in charge of any inquiry, do you trust the integrity of the Malaysian judiciary?
Mahathir Mohamad: I do, at times I do but...
Stephen Sackur : is that because you appointed the judges?
Mahathir Mohamad: I didn't appoint the judges, the judges were recommended by the Chief Justice and my duty is to check whether he has any records or not and after that he is presented to the king who will then appoint the judge...
Stephen Sackur : Dr Mahathir, you know as well as I do, that the hottest political topic in Malaysiatoday, is the state of the judiciary, the integrity of the judiciary and that a video has been playing in Malaysia for a long time now which shows a top lawyer talking to a top judge going back to 2001, in which the lawyer says to the judge 'believe me in the end all of the positions going all the way to the supreme court are fixed by the politicians', i.e. by you who were the prime minister at the time Dr Mahathir?
Mahathir Mohamad: Did he say that? Did he mention my name?
Stephen Sackur : He didn't mention your name he said this will be fixed, this goes through the political system. You ran the political system.
Mahathir Mohamad: I'm not so sure about that. But the fact is that this man had his video taken because they intended to blackmail him. He happens to be my lawyer, defending me at this moment for libel against Anwar and this tape came from Anwar. Anwar had these thingsrecorded in order to blackmail the lawyer.
Stephen Sackur : But the point is the current government led by Prime Minister Abdullah who is nominally or despite what you have said on this programme, is of your party. Prime Minister Abdullah has now essentially apologised, he said both to the supreme court justice that you removed and to other judges that were suspended or removed during your time in power, he's said sorry to them. He's said that he wants to offer them monetary compensation
Mahathir Mohamad: Fine but it's a political move. Something a man who is very unpopular at the moment, wanting to show that he's going to do something right.
Stephen Sackur: And that Dr Mahathir is my point. The Malaysian people no longer want to live with the system you created. That's why Prime Minister Abdullah is essentially dismantling the system that you created.
Mahathir Mohamad: No no no he's not dismantling the system, he is making use of the system in a worse way. Nobody can say anything against him, he has newspapers which only reports about him and how great he is. And he was mislead by his own supporters, into believingthat if he holds the election now, this is one and half years before the end of the term, he would win, he would have a clean sweep.If you look at the records, he made statements that he would win the election, with zero for the Opposition.
Stephen Sackur: The more I listen to you talking about Prime Minister Abdullah, the more I wonder why did you choose him to be your successor?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well these people are very smart in hiding their true character. He was known as Mr Clean and I thought I would appoint a clean person to succeed me. Although he was not the one with the highest votes in my party. But I thought that he was older and Iappointed him thinking that he's not going to do anything very wrong. But this man gives priority to his family rather than to the country.
Stephen Sackur: So it was a fundamental lack of judgement on your part?
Mahathir Mohamad: Yes I'll admit that. But we all make mistakes. The British people voted in people like Blair, who told lies, so did the Americans. Lots of people make mistakes.
Stephen Sackur: We all make mistakes you say, was it also a mistake for you to define yourself so clearly, as anti-western and anti-democratic, in the sense that the West understands democracy?
Mahathir Mohamad: No that's the problem, I am not anti-Western, I am against the bad things that were done by the Western countries.
Stephen Sackur: You're not anti-western and yet in June 2003 before you left office, you said anglo-Saxon Europeans are essentially proponents and I'm quoting here: 'proponents of war, sodomy and genocide.'
Mahathir Mohamad: Which is true, you must admit.
Stephen Sackur: But you're not anti-western?
Mahathir Mohamad: I'm stating the fact. This is their character and I will continue to say so.
Stephen Sackur: So when you come here, you sit in the Hardtalk studio, in the heart of London, you regard yourself do you, as in one of the Headquarters of war, sodomy and genocide?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well I come here of course expecting to be lambasted by you, because that is the way you work.
Stephen Sackur: Well I'm not lambasting you at all. I'm trying to tease out whether you believe it was a mistake for you to use this sort of language. Because you clearly cut yourself off, from any sort of meaningful dialogue with the West when you use these words.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well the Europeans used to call us the lazy Malays, incompetent Malays, untrustworthy Malays, we couldn't say a thing about you. So when I was in a position to say what we think about you, and I did and you don't like it. When you said it to us you expect usto like it. We didn't like it, but we had no way of making our voices heard.
Stephen Sackur: I am just wondering how you feel about democracy. Of course in the world since 9/11, the United States and the coalition of partners led by the United Kingdom, have talked a lot about spreading democracy, do you believe in democracy?
Mahathir Mohamad: If you look at the history of the west, they come up with all kinds of ideologies, they use it for sometime and then they found it defective and they dropped it and start on another. One day they are going to forget about democracy because in some countriesdemocracy actually ended up with anarchy. And there were practically no governments. It's not a system that can feed everybody. You must have a certain understanding of the limitations of democracy, in order to make it work.
Stephen Sackur: Is that why you were not a democrat, why you in the end did behave like a dictator?
Mahathir Mohamad: Well that is something that the West would like to say about me, I am a dictator.
Stephen Sackur: Well I'm just quoting your own words from 2002. You said it's good governance people need, you said, feudal kings even dictators have provided and can provide good governments.
Mahathir Mohamad: Well that's very true, that is very true. The great civilisations of the past did not have democracies. And yet they became great. It's not necessary that the system will work for everybody. But if we have a bad leader, even the democratic system will fail.We must remember that it is a democratic country which dropped atomic bombs, killing 200 thousand people.
Stephen Sackur: How do you think the Malaysian public will respond to you saying, look you know what democracy isn't the best system and in fact dictatorship can often work better.
Mahathir Mohamad: I went through five elections and I won all the elections with a majority...
Stephen Sackur: Without a free press, locking up many of your opponents.
Mahathir Mohamad: There you go again about locking up many of my opponents, who are they?
Stephen Sackur: I don't know how many times I have to tell you, that I've studied the human rights watch reports, the Amnesty International reports, studies from the state department, from the Canadian government.
Mahathir Mohamad: These are biased reports, the first thing I did on becoming the prime minister in 1981, was to release political prisoners who were detained by my predecessors, 22 or them, including many members of the Opposition.
Stephen Sackur: Under the 1984 Press law which required newspapers to get a new licence every single year. It made it very easy for you to quieten them down, didn't it?
Mahathir Mohamad: No it has always been there, the press law has been there...I didn't do that...but the fact is that we have a multi-racial country and if we are not careful, there will be racial flare-ups. And you look at most of the countries with multi-racial population, they are never peaceful, even Northern Ireland, it took you such a long to stop the war in Northern Ireland.
Stephen Sackur: Talking of peace, you did worry about the stability of your country, didn't you? That's why you were very strong, very tough with Islamist extremism inside Malaysia.
Mahathir Mohamad: Yes it is necessary.
Stephen Sackur: Well I just wonder in that case then why just before you left office, in October 2003, why did you tell the Islamic Summit Conference that and I'm quoting again a very famous speech, it's a little bit long but '1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews,' you said. 'We're actually very strong. The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million but today Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them.' You wenton to say: 'But the Jews have become arrogant. And arrogant people like angry people will make mistakes and there may be a window of opportunity for us.'
Mahathir Mohamad: I'm stating facts, I am willing to say that again and again that this is what has happened.
Stephen Sackur: Anti-Semitic and racist that was called by many governments and people around the world.
Mahathir Mohamad: Anti-Semitism is created by the Jews themselves. We cannot say anything. In fact journalists have been arrested for saying something against the holocaust and jailed for three years. Where is the freedom of press?
Stephen Sackur: So those words I quoted in your view, are not anti-Semitic?Mahathir Mohamad: No they are not anti-Semitic? I am just quoting facts. The fact is that the United Statesobeys what Israelwants it to do.
Stephen Sackur: You call them facts, let's leave that aside for the moment. I am trying to understand your logic. Here you are a man who says that your own country is potentially destabilised by Islamic extremism and then you go out in an Islamic Conference and you usewords which could have been used by Osama bin Laden.
Mahathir Mohamad: There's no contradiction, no contradiction at all. I don't want Islamic terrorism any more than I want Jewish attacks against Israel, or American bombs on Baghdad. It is not incompatible.
Stephen Sackur: Do you feel confident that people still listen to your message?
Mahathir Mohamad: I wouldn't be able to say. Why should people worry about me?
Stephen Sackur: In Malaysiapeople say, and I'm talking about the Prime Minister, the leader of the Opposition: it's time for you to be quiet.
Mahathir Mohamad: Why should I be quiet? You mean to say when they are doing something wrong, to my country and I should not say anything? I would be irresponsible if I were to do that.
Stephen Sackur: Dr Mahathir Mohamad thank you very much for being on Hardtalk.
Mahathir Mohamad: You're welcome.
Mahathir cracks UMNO by quitting, urges others to follow
Malaysia's influential former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad quit the ruling party Monday after a long feud with his successor, deepening the cracks that appeared after the party's recent massive electoral losses.
In a speech to about 1,000 people, Mahathir said his decision to leave the United Malays National Organization party was prompted by his lack of confidence in Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.
Mahathir also urged other UMNO members and Cabinet members to quit.
"I am quitting UMNO today. I will only come back when there is a leadership change," Mahathir said. "We can return to UMNO" when Abdullah steps down, he said in the speech in his home state of Kedah.
Mahathir's son Mokhzani confirmed the contents of the speech to The Associated Press.
The surprise decision is expected to intensify the crisis for Abdullah who is facing calls from many of his own party members to resign to take responsibility for the party's losses in the March 8 general elections.
Abdullah said he is not stepping down. "Why should I? I have work to do," he told reporters.
Abdullah's main worry is that Mahathir's call could trigger large-scale desertions, which could split the party - one that has been in power since Malaysia's independence from Britain in 1957. It could also eventually bring down the government if enough UMNO lawmakers quit in Parliament.
Abdullah said he does not believe that will happen, but urged UMNO members to remain faithful. "If they want to abandon the party it's their choice. But I do not believe they will do that.
"The ruling National Front coalition, which is dominated by UMNO, is already threatened by the three-party opposition alliance led by former Deputy Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim.
The opposition won an unprecedented 82 seats in the 222-member Parliament in the March elections, and Anwar claims he has the tacit support of 30 National Front lawmakers to bring down the government. He says he will make his move before mid-September.
Mahathir, 82, led the country and UMNO for 22 years until 2003 when he handed over power to Abdullah. But within a year, he became Abdullah's biggest critic, stepping up his barbs after the election that handed UMNO its worst result ever.
However, he had given no indication that he would quit the party. Instead, he had been urging party members to rebel against the prime minister, and is believed to wield considerable influence among the party's grass-roots.
"I was surprised. I did not expect he would take such an action," Abdullah said.
Mahathir accuses Abdullah of nepotism, corruption and inefficiency. Party insiders say Mahathir is upset because many big infrastructure projects he had initiated were canceled by Abdullah.
Some of the allegations of economic mismanagement resonated with Malaysians who were being buffeted by increasing inflation, however. Also, Abdullah's promise to fight corruption had shown few results.
James Chin, a political science professor at Monash university in Malaysia, said, "Mahathir realizes he cannot fight (Abdullah) within the party. The only way is to resign and hopefully force mass resignations from UMNO.
"Cabinet ministers rallied around Abdullah after Mahathir dropped the bombshell.
"We entered UMNO not because of Dr. Mahathir. So today he cannot ask us to leave UMNO," said Khaled Nordin, the higher education minister.
Another Cabinet minister, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi, said Mahathir's departure "is not that important." He indicated that the party was glad to be rid of Mahathir's disruptive influence.
Still, some ministers were clearly worried.
"I don't think that many people are obsessed with hate for the prime minister. But if sufficient numbers of members of Parliament leave UMNO, it ... could pave the way for the opposition alliance to form the government," Shahrir Samad, the domestic trade and consumer affairs minister, told the AP.
In a speech to about 1,000 people, Mahathir said his decision to leave the United Malays National Organization party was prompted by his lack of confidence in Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.
Mahathir also urged other UMNO members and Cabinet members to quit.
"I am quitting UMNO today. I will only come back when there is a leadership change," Mahathir said. "We can return to UMNO" when Abdullah steps down, he said in the speech in his home state of Kedah.
Mahathir's son Mokhzani confirmed the contents of the speech to The Associated Press.
The surprise decision is expected to intensify the crisis for Abdullah who is facing calls from many of his own party members to resign to take responsibility for the party's losses in the March 8 general elections.
Abdullah said he is not stepping down. "Why should I? I have work to do," he told reporters.
Abdullah's main worry is that Mahathir's call could trigger large-scale desertions, which could split the party - one that has been in power since Malaysia's independence from Britain in 1957. It could also eventually bring down the government if enough UMNO lawmakers quit in Parliament.
Abdullah said he does not believe that will happen, but urged UMNO members to remain faithful. "If they want to abandon the party it's their choice. But I do not believe they will do that.
"The ruling National Front coalition, which is dominated by UMNO, is already threatened by the three-party opposition alliance led by former Deputy Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim.
The opposition won an unprecedented 82 seats in the 222-member Parliament in the March elections, and Anwar claims he has the tacit support of 30 National Front lawmakers to bring down the government. He says he will make his move before mid-September.
Mahathir, 82, led the country and UMNO for 22 years until 2003 when he handed over power to Abdullah. But within a year, he became Abdullah's biggest critic, stepping up his barbs after the election that handed UMNO its worst result ever.
However, he had given no indication that he would quit the party. Instead, he had been urging party members to rebel against the prime minister, and is believed to wield considerable influence among the party's grass-roots.
"I was surprised. I did not expect he would take such an action," Abdullah said.
Mahathir accuses Abdullah of nepotism, corruption and inefficiency. Party insiders say Mahathir is upset because many big infrastructure projects he had initiated were canceled by Abdullah.
Some of the allegations of economic mismanagement resonated with Malaysians who were being buffeted by increasing inflation, however. Also, Abdullah's promise to fight corruption had shown few results.
James Chin, a political science professor at Monash university in Malaysia, said, "Mahathir realizes he cannot fight (Abdullah) within the party. The only way is to resign and hopefully force mass resignations from UMNO.
"Cabinet ministers rallied around Abdullah after Mahathir dropped the bombshell.
"We entered UMNO not because of Dr. Mahathir. So today he cannot ask us to leave UMNO," said Khaled Nordin, the higher education minister.
Another Cabinet minister, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi, said Mahathir's departure "is not that important." He indicated that the party was glad to be rid of Mahathir's disruptive influence.
Still, some ministers were clearly worried.
"I don't think that many people are obsessed with hate for the prime minister. But if sufficient numbers of members of Parliament leave UMNO, it ... could pave the way for the opposition alliance to form the government," Shahrir Samad, the domestic trade and consumer affairs minister, told the AP.
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